Directors Ruben Östlund & Sarah Polley Discuss Their Films 'Triangle of Sadness' and 'Women Talking'

[eerie music]

[Ruben] Filmmaking is something that

you almost can compare with having a conversation

with a group of people around a table.

[Sarah] I get really obsessed

with the different ways people tell the same story

and why we get attached to our versions of the truth.

Do you like to be a film director?

Yeah, I love it.

How about you?

Yes, I do, yeah. Okay, good.

But I mean it's,

I love this part of the filmmaking most where I am now

because right now I'm starting off the next idea.

Pitching the idea from a very like simple place, you know.

I just have a couple of sentences

and then I talk to different people

and then I just collect ideas.

So I love this part.

I don't like shooting so much.

And the editing process is really, really fun.

But also very, I'll say exhausting.

Do you usually start like that,

like with a concept and then you go

and talk about the concept before you've written the script?

Yeah, yeah. Okay.

My next film is going to be a film called

The Entertainment System is Down

I've been reading, I've been hearing a lot about it.

I'm sorry.

So I've been hearing a lot about,

but I've been fascinated by the fact

that you talk about it so openly.

Yeah. 'Cause I think filmmakers

can get so protective of their ideas.

So do the characters come after the concept

and you've had lots of conversations?

Yes. And then they emerge?

Yeah. Okay,

so I got inspired by the fact

that you were doing this publicly,

and so now I've started like talking about,

I'm not gonna say what my ideas

'cause I don't have it hashed out.

But I think it's so interesting to just watch a filmmaker

go around talking about their idea

when it's in such a nascent stage.

Yeah. So I'm so curious to see

how this experiment goes.

And I'll blame you if it goes badly.

Definitely. Yeah.

[eerie music]

When I look at Women Talking,

how many characters are in that film

and all of them have a quite big part.

And how did you portion that

when you were working with the script?

I found that really complex in terms of

just not dropping the thread on any particular character.

So there are nine that stay in the hayloft all the time.

There are three at the beginning as well.

So 12 characters,

and I had to write a draft

from each of their points of view.

So I think I did actually two drafts

where I just focused on one of those characters

being the main character.

And I made sure I did that for each one of them

because I think it was so easy to drop the thread

on one of the characters,

and all the parts of the conversation

impact everyone that's in the room.

So just trying to track that,

and understand how someone who was not involved

in one of the conversations might be transformed by it

or might be impacted was really important.

How did you do that with your,

'cause you have a huge ensemble in your film?

For me it was, the big part

of that was to balance it when I was writing.

It was interesting because for an example,

when it comes to the island

then all the actors are basically present

in every single scene.

And I was thinking about that in your film also

that if you're shooting like for three days

and one of actors actually have to sit there.

Yeah. And doesn't have anything

to do for three days.

Yeah. It's quite hard

to ask an actor to do that.

At the same time that I actually wanted to see their faces

and everything like that,

I wanted to do quite wide shots.

So I didn't have any possibility to say to them,

yeah we can have an extra that is replacing you.

Did you also then think about

who you were casting in terms of personality of people,

who would be okay with that?

Because for me, I felt like I was really conscious

that I was gonna be asking actress

to stay off camera for like in with Ben Whishaw

he was often staying off camera

for three to four days, just writing notes.

I, okay, yeah sure. I thought, you know,

you need like an egoless person.

Yeah. To do that

and not get frustrated. Yeah.

So were you conscious of that

when you put the cast together

of making sure its people that can handle?

But there were actually some actors that said,

No, I don't want to spend this time.

I know how long you are shooting,

and I know I'm too old to sit there and not do anything.

So I will not tell you who it was.

[laughing] But I think

it's great when they do that

because I want to be open about the process.

Yeah. And how I'm going to do it.

And I mean when I look at your cast,

there are big stars there that of course

must have a ego, right?

I just felt like one person could destroy the hayloft

and it could be lit on fire.

Yeah. So I felt like

we had to be so careful and actually

nobody had an issue with it.

And everybody,

sometimes people are doing the same monologue 120 times

by the time we worked our way around the room.

And there was never a complaint about that.

Then they were really there for each other

in this really amazing way.

Did you find, I mean I guess that there were

a couple of actors that you wanted to work with

and you didn't know a hundred percent

which character they should play from the beginning.

Yeah, yeah. And that you had to make

a puzzle and okay, this is how the ensemble will look,

and we put this person here and this.

Yeah. Actor in this role

and so on.

It was almost like putting together

a repertory theater company or something.

Yeah okay. Where you,

you know sort of know the players.

Yeah. And then you figure

what parts they should play in relation to each other.

Did you have something that you felt

like you learned from the process

of making Triangle of Sadness that you'll carry forward?

I didn't have a breakthrough moment

when I was doing this film and I always look

for that breakthrough moment when you feel like,

there something came up that I didn't expect to come up.

And I felt like, wow, it really breakthrough,

and it became so much better than I could expect.

When we started to shoot on the island,

Dolly De Leon comes into the film for real.

I was very nervous if she is going to carry the role

and manage to transform from the bottom of the hierarchy

to the top of the hierarchy. Yeah.

In three scenes.

Because that's was basically what how it was written.

And then we were shooting the scene when she says

On the, you're cleaning lady in here, captain.

That was the first day of her work on the island.

And then I felt, yes, this is going to work.

Yeah. She's doing a great job.

So that was a breakthrough moment, definitely.

This is really bad.

This is really, really bad.

And do you rehearse, like did you have

a sense of seeing her do those scenes before you shot them?

Yes, I mean we did a little bit on Zoom

but then when I shoot.

First of all, okay,

we rehearse the day before

or the evening before.

But then when we go on set,

I like to start with a master shot

so I can see all the actors.

Because I don't want to go too close to someone's face

because then I feel that there can be things

that I don't a hundred percent believe

in the situation that I can't detect.

But if you have a master shot

I'll feel that then I have an overview

and I can detect if there's something

that doesn't feel organic.

So I always ask the actors,

can you play through this scene.

If you feel that there's a line

that you don't want to go to, don't go there.

And then we can try to figure out a way

for you to get to the line.

So it's a little bit of like a combination of improvisation

and rehearsal in the beginning of a shooting day.

The ship is going under.

Was there a breakthrough moment

for you when you was making this film?

Yeah.

I feel like there were many of them.

The thing about it was that

I didn't know how to make this film.

I'd never been on a set like it

where it's this thing where it's so much in one place

and this chamber piece,

and this sense of how much do you break scenes up,

and how much do you let them run like a play.

And so I felt like it was a constant process of discovery

and think what I had to let go of was this sense that

people will think I don't know what I'm doing

because of course I didn't know what I was doing.

I'd never made that movie before.

And then I realized. Yeah.

This is actually how you are on every movie.

Yeah. And usually

as the filmmaker, you're the least experienced person

at your job.

So it doesn't actually make sense

to pretend you know what you're doing.

Like it's much better to just fumble through it and-

Yeah, be open about it that you don't know.

Yeah, and be confident about not knowing

what you're doing too. Yeah, yeah.

Sure. As opposed to

have it diminish you but-

Did you work individually with all the actors?

Did it first.

So I had long meetings with each of them,

and then I would bring them together as families

for meetings or in relationship with each other.

I always need at least a week of rehearsal

in the dressed set.

I just feel like having that time to rehearse

in the actual space. Yeah.

So that there's no figuring stuff out

while the crew is standing around.

Which I find is just puts a certain amount of pressure

on the actors.

So we did have time to really work through a lot of stuff.

But then with some of these people like

I don't actually wanna tell Claire Foy

how to play a scene before she plays it.

'Cause I know what she's gonna do.

[Ruben] Yeah. It's probably better

than what I've imagined.

And you know, all of the actors in this,

I kind of always wanted to see what their impulse

was gonna be before I imposed.

Yeah. My ideas onto it.

But it's hard that balance

'cause you also don't want people

to be flying in the wrong direction.

I cannot forgive them.

I will never forgive them.

Did you experience like, oh no, this is not right.

Yeah. Of course you did

but you don't have to tell me in which moment this happened.

But- Did you?

No, but actually I didn't do that really.

Because I think that during my casting process

I do a lot of improvisations with actors,

and I have to feel that they are, how to say,

grounded in the character in some way.

Oh, you mean in terms of the actors?

No, I don't think I had a moment of doubt

about the actors.

I had moments of doubt about my own way of.

[laughing] Yeah but that happens

everyday, so yeah. Yeah.

I feel like in all of your films

there's this sense of people being unmasked.

So there's an artifice,

and then we get underneath the artifice,

and often it's the more sort of complex

aspects of human nature.

Is there something in your life where there were experiences

in your life that made you kind of start turning around

that ideal lot of who are people really?

I have one memory of my childhood

when I was maybe around 10 years old

that later on became a scene

in my second feature film Involuntary.

And it is that I'm almost falling asleep

in the lap of my mother.

And we are visiting the neighbors

on the island of Styrsà where I lived.

And all the adults have been drinking a little wine.

So they get a little bit drunk,

and they have this conversation.

And all of a sudden I hear my mother say

to the man that is sitting across the table,

Yuan, can't you look at me also when you're talking,

because it feels kind of strange

when you only looking at Elizabeth.

If we are three people around the table

I think you should look at everyone around the table.

And maybe that is not like revealing something else

about the characters, but what I got interested

in that moment was that everybody was trying

to not lose their face.

Because you have broken like a social contract

on how you should behave when you're socializing.

Do you have anything from your upbringing

that you go back to or think about

when you are looking at your work?

Yeah, I think that I come from a family of skeptics.

So there's a sense that

whatever story you're telling is probably not true

or exaggerated or is somehow self-serving in some way.

And I think it's a healthy impulse to have

but I think I get really obsessed

with the different ways people tell the same story,

and why we get attached to our versions of the truth.

What is memory and how do we grapple with

what we're imposing on our memories

to make sense of our lives

so yeah. Yeah.

And you feel that you get back to that kind of approach

in all your movies or?

I think a lot of them,

like there's a lot of dealing with

different versions of the truth,

or trying to find a narrative

or trying to not be so attached to them.

Do you think about the audience at all

when you're making a film or?

Yes, of course.

I think about the audience in the way of like, okay,

I have an idea of what you want to do.

How am I going to communicate it to the audience.

Because for me,

filmmaking is something that you almost

can compare with having a conversation with

a group of people around a table.

You can't talk in a mumbling way down

in the table like this

because then they will not understand what you're saying.

So filmmaking is definitely for me

like a way of, okay, we have this big screen,

the audience is going to sit in the room together.

How do I create an experience for them

where what I try to communicate is going to have an impact.

So I definitely think about the audience.

And in which way do you think about the audience?

I kind of imagine it's just me.

And so I'm sort of, I mean, I feel like

once I start to think too broadly about an audience

then I'm sort of weirdly watering down something.

So I try to think of

if I'm connecting with it, if it's clear to me,

if there's something it that says

that's actually resonating.

But I think so easily the audience conversation

can morph from what you're talking about,

into a conversation with financiers

about how do you make something the most obvious.

Yes.

Accessible version of itself.

And actually what was great about making this film was

I constantly had producers,

and a studio who were saying,

Just let go of the guardrails, trust the audience.

Okay. Don't explain anything.

And I thought that was kind of revolutionary

that I had that. Yeah.

That opposite pressure was really nice.

Yeah. Yeah.

I have a fun aspect

that I've been thinking about the audience lately.

And it is that I would like it to be

that when the audience go to a Ruben Östlund movie,

they should know it's a risk involved.

So when they go into the cinema

and they sit down and the film start,

there will be a point in the movie

where I'm going a little bit further

than they expect me to do.

[laughing]

So, and that was like something that I had

as a guideline when it came to the storm and the vomiting.

Yeah, yeah.

That if you just do it little bit

then it's little childish.

But if you go 10 steps further

than what is expect,

then something will happen,

and it will start to mean something.

And in this film that I'm starting to work on now

The Entertainment System is Down,

I told you like, okay, they are in this airplane

and there is no entertainment.

And the passengers are up to deal with boredom.

I was thinking like this,

that it's a kid that wants to borrow

the iPad of the big brother and the mother says,

No you have to wait five minutes, then it's your turn.

And the kid is like, you know,

sitting there dealing with boredom.

And then I would like to challenge the audience

that now you are going to deal with boredom.

Oh that's amazing.

So the kid is asking, Okay, how much is it left now?

Come on now it's four minutes and 30 seconds

just deal with this.

And then to let the characters deal with that

in real time and the audience to deal with that

in real time.

And the goal is to create a scene that will be

the biggest walk out in the history of walk out.

[laughing] So great, yay.

[eerie music]