Race In America

“Four Men? ... That’s a Lynching”: Rev. Jesse Jackson on George Floyd’s Killing and the Protests That Have Swept the Nation

An interview with the civil rights leader about demonstrations, Joe Biden, and Donald Trump (his comments “polarize the country”).

By David Friend

June 1, 2020

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The Reverend Jesse Jackson—civil rights activist, minister, and two-time presidential candidate—visited Minneapolis last week. The city remains wrought with anguish and rocked by civil unrest in the aftermath of the killing of George Floyd. As protests and rioting erupted across the country—and the police officer who had placed his knee on Floyd’s neck for nearly nine minutes was charged with murder and manslaughter—Jackson, age 78, spoke with Vanity Fair from his home in Chicago, addressing this volatile moment. (Jackson’s comments have been lightly edited.)

Vanity Fair: What was your reaction as you watched the footage of George Floyd being suffocated by the police officer?

Jesse Jackson: Painfully, it’s more of the same. This happens so [often], so publicly: Whites are embarrassed, blacks humiliated. As if it’s natural to have white people behaving this way. Trayvon Martin is killed, a teenage kid. Others, shot in the back; the police walk away. In Ferguson, Missouri, they walk away. A jogger in Georgia. The police are protected by FOP—the Federation of Police—and [protected by] the culture. You know, between the 1880s and 1960s, 5,000 blacks were lynched. Were lynched. And somehow that does not fit into our analysis of what’s happening. From 1880 to 1968, Alabama had 261 lynchings; Arkansas, 492; Florida, 311; Georgia, 637; Kentucky, 168; Louisiana, 549; Mississippi, 664…

So watching George Floyd’s killing was “triggering” for you—to lynching?

Yeah. Four men? One man a “nigger” to be watched out for? That’s a lynching. It’s a hate crime. I moved to get lynching laws on the books two years ago with [Senators] Cory Booker and Kamala Harris. Federal law. Up to then, lynching was not a federal crime. It passed the Senate [and a parallel bill passed the House], but I’m not sure the president’s signed it yet. I don’t think he has. (In 2019, the Senate passed federal anti-lynching legislation. The House did the same in February. The bills have yet to be combined for the president’s signature.)

Tell me about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s message. He advocated for nonviolent protest. As tensions mount in America, please speak to the importance of demonstrating for justice for George Floyd, demonstrating against white supremacy, and yet also adhering to a message of nonviolence.

We’re in an ocean of violence. We know that in the face of violence, with discipline, with dignity, our message is threatened. “How many stores have been burned and looted?”—that becomes the message. [Instead] our message has to do with: “How can we stop lynching? Those who do engage in this behavior must face swift justice.” That message is lost when you are distracted [by the torching and looting]. Dr. King said, after coming from [the 1965 civil unrest in the Los Angeles neighborhood of] Watts, “Violence is the language of the unheard.” Suppose there was never a camera on the killing of George Floyd—and [only] the people saw it. The people who have no voice, they can’t do a press conference. You just saw it and you can’t prove it in court. The police—they’d accuse [George Floyd] of threatening them. He dropped a gun or something like that.

So the cameras and the press are serving as the eyes and conscience of the public?

The cameras become the arbiters, not so much the press. The press follows the culture.

You have called for protests to continue. What has your reaction been to this public outpouring?

I’m encouraged to see so many young whites march with young blacks on this matter, [that] there’s this much anguish and conscience among whites. That’s progress. There’s a white-support base. Even Fox says no to this. Fox News.

How do we stop the burning of buildings?

The hope is: minimize. People letting their steam off some kind of way. We’re in two pandemics. The racial pandemic and the COVID pandemic. With the new corona and you march in groups? Handshaking? If you don’t know the protocols to stay safe, you will die. My biggest fear is: Do you have the discipline to fight back and not self-destruct in the process?

What would Dr. King say now?

Dr. King’s message of self-determination is real. We’ll have these spaces of anger where people cannot control themselves. But my concern is that the battles with corona can reckon really badly. It’s the unseen enemy. I don’t think the people who did the riots in Louisville and Minneapolis were from the neighborhood. There’s a second wave who were quite professional at torching…torch[ing] the police headquarters to the ground. That was organized burning.

Have you felt nervous going out—being in an age group where being in public can be lethal?

I went [to Minneapolis] and followed the protocols when I stopped by to lay a wreath where [George Floyd] was killed. Everybody came in, and I said, “Back up, back up, back up.” With all the protocols, they began to stretch out.

What went through your mind while laying the wreath?

It was in some sense the worst of the civil rights killings all over again. I did feel. I’m not numb. I’m still sensitive. I still care. I had to watch this boy die on television and felt I had to leave my home—shut down, I couldn’t take it anymore—and be with the family. I met the attorney general. I met with the county prosecutor. I met with the governor. I met with the mayor. I met with ecumenical ministers. Laid the wreath and came back to Chicago.

During the riots of the 1960s, we had racist leaders like Alabama governor George Wallace and Georgia governor Lester Maddox in charge. Now we have a president, whom many consider racist, enflaming social unrest on Twitter by quoting a racist cry from the Miami police chief in 1967: “When the looting starts, the shooting starts.” What would you think the president’s motives are for tweeting like that?

I don’t know if it’s to reach his base or not. But it’s not just racist. When people walk up with AK-47s into the statehouse in Michigan for their demonstrations? The governor’s white. She’s female. That’s fomenting violence. We must resolve problems in a civil way, not through violence.

What message would you give to President Trump right now?

To show sympathy. Encourage the government to prosecute murders. He should be on the side of the victim.

Do you feel the president—with his comments after Charlottesville that there were “very fine people on both sides”; his comments about “shithole countries”; his tweets the last few days—serves to divide the country at a time when we need a figure who unites us?

Those comments serve to polarize the country. And give many whites a false sense of security.

Last week the president’s tweets (about mail-in ballots and voter fraud) were considered a violation of Twitter’s policy against voting-related misinformation, so the company chose to tag them with warnings. The right to vote—one person, one vote—is at the heart of our democracy and every democracy. Are you discouraged by efforts to suppress voter turnout and to make it more difficult in November?

I’m determined. We got the right to vote in 1965 [with the Voting Rights Act] after being denied the right to vote. Blacks couldn’t vote. White women couldn’t serve on juries. Eighteen-year-olds couldn’t vote. Couldn’t vote on college campuses. With that [new law], we got a new majority. Blacks, women, Latinos, Native Americans, 18-year-olds. And so we must use that strength to achieve our purpose. In 2016, Hillary Clinton won by 2 million [popular] votes. In 2018, we won big time [in the midterm elections].

And this November?

There’s a big Senate race in North Carolina. Two in Georgia. One in Florida. One in Mississippi. Colorado. And one more state. The ex-slave states will determine the huge power shift in our country. The ex-slave states will come alive. We will become purple and blue. We have the power, in those states, to change the makeup of the country politically. The black mayor in Richmond. In Montgomery. We’ve had black mayors in Selma and Mobile. Houston, Dallas. Jackson, Mississippi. Atlanta, Georgia. Augusta, Georgia. There’s a new generation of political power. It’s wonderful. And too little attention has been spent on that. These are towns where you used to be afraid to use the restroom. That’s [a testament to] Dr. King too. And then we’ve had a president [for whom Americans] cast the most votes. (Barack Obama’s 69 million-plus popular-vote total was the largest in U.S. history.)

In my last interview with you, for my book The Naughty Nineties, we discussed the Million Man March. You described it not as a civil rights protest, but as a gathering for pride and solidarity—for personal issues. How would you characterize the Black Lives Matter movement?

Black Lives Matters heightens political consequences. The killing of people without consequence heightens political consciousness. It was really kind of born in Ferguson, Missouri, with Trayvon Martin being killed, and Amadou Diallo being killed. And for so many, their lives didn’t matter. So Black Lives Matter came out of the concreteness of the situation, expressing the spirit of our times, where we say, “All Lives Matter.” But most of those being shot in the back by police are blacks. And black men, at that. Others too. But for the most part, they’re black men being shot by police—who walk away free.

This weekend Joe Biden was discussing his phone call with George Floyd’s family. They spoke about losing a loved one, about grief. What sort of president would Joe Biden be—and how would he have handled this moment?

Based on the people around him, Joe Biden is a ship in the ocean—a multiracial, multicultural ocean. And the ocean will determine the sailing of the ship. Joe will be a decent guy. We’ll keep applying pressure to him as we do everybody else. I respect him very much, and I hope he will prevail.

Has Vice President Biden consulted with you?

No, he has not.

I’m from the Chicago area. I watched Michelle Obama’s new documentary, Becoming, and saw that video clip of you in Grant Park, in 2008, tearing up when Barack Obama had won the nomination. How far are we from that moment now—and will we get back there?

We will…. You know, [that night] I was crying. We saw on the [large TV] screen that he had won. And I thought about the moment. The movement. Those who could not make it to Chicago. The people who made that night possible—they were not there. They couldn’t make it.

So that’s what you were going through emotionally.

I wish they could have been there. Dr. King and Medgar Evers and Fannie Lou Hamer. People who’d paid the supreme price. If God had let them live just 15 seconds more to see the fruits of their labor. I was blessed to be there to represent them as best I tried to. Michelle represents something very special to us. Barack represents one of the finest and best presidents we’ve ever had.

Moving forward, what’s your personal message to people right now?

Part of what Trump is: He has lowered the expectations of decency. They refer to him as an impeached president. And he’s done so much stuff. He’s dulled our consciousness. And I’m afraid, as many people who watched the killing [of George Floyd], their conscience was dulled. I thank God to keep my conscience alive, alive, alive. I’ll tell you, we tell people who protest to take into account Code Blue—the police—and take into account COVID-19—corona. There are two pandemics. And we tell those who fight Code Blue: Don’t suspend the protocols of COVID-19. That’s dangerous. All our kids standing there, they’re excited, they’re squeezing and all that. It could kill them. Also, today, there’s the census count this year. There is voter registration this year. Your vote must count this year. You have the power to change the course of the country.

You see it as your mission to tell people this?

Yes. It’s about the right to self-determination. And using good judgment.

David Friend

Editor of Creative Development